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tv   Charlie Rose  PBS  July 7, 2015 12:00am-1:01am PDT

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>> rose: welcome to the program, we begin with two big issues today, the greek referendum and the women's world cup soccer final. we start with greek debt and joining me are megan greene sebastian mall abby and ian bremmer. >> well, there is many mysteries in this greek story but one of them is that the greeks apparently think that the reason they hadn't gotten better term from the creditors before was that they lacked some kind of democratic mandate or something. they thought that if they had this referendum, that its government could get better terms. the real problem and the reason why greece is not getting better terms is ger pan politics, to the greek politicsment if you had a referendum in germannee saying should we give pore money to those greeks i guarantee you that the germans want want to. >> rose: we conclude with the women's world cup finals and the extraordinary victory by the united states over japanment joining me briana scurry tommy smyth
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and jere longman. >> the women's game is groaning in leaps and bounds and this victory here i mean the only thing that could have been better charlie, was that if the u.s. had beaten england on july 4th. that would have been the best. >> rose: the greek referendum and the world cup final when we continue. >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: >> rose: additional funding provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose.
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>> rose: one of the world's oldest democracies has spoken am greek voters took to the polls on sunday to vote in a referendum called last week by prime minister alexis tsipras the vote was a rejection of austerity. more than 60% voted against the terms set by the country's international creditors, officials warn greece could be rejected from the eurozone. prime minister tsipras hailed the vote as a brave choice and also said that greece would go back to the negotiating table. his finance minister has resigned. joining me now from athens, megan greene. from washington sebastian mall abby the paul volcker senior fellow from council on foreign relations and ial bremmer, president and founder of eurasia group i'm pleased to have them on this program. let me start with you in athens what is the aftermath to this vote? >> well, here in athens there's still a real sense of defines. i was in the square when it became really clear that the no vote was going to win.
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and people sort of said well at least we're standing up to the creditors. that being said when i woke up this morning the lines at the atms were even longer. i think there is some concern about what this no vote means. and tomorrow eurozone leaders are going to get together in brussels and try and hammer out a deal. i think that is probably really unlikely especially in light of this no vote. >> rose: sebastian, your reaction to this vote and what it means for the rest of us? >> well there's many mysteries, charlie in this greek story but one of them is that the greeks apparently think that the reason they haven't got-- hadn't gotten better terms from the creditors before was they lack lacked a democratic mandate or something am they thought if they had this referendum that supported their position, that the government could get better terms. the real problem and the reason why greece is to the getting better terms is german politics not break politics, if you had a referendum in germany saying should we give more money to those greeks, i guarantee you the germans wouldn't want to. and so i think the greeks are coming back to the table
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tomorrow with unrealistic expectations that after the referendum they will get better treatment. i don't think they will. >> rose: and if they don't? >> well, i think if they don't, what we're going to see is that the lanes outside those greek banks will get longer and longer. and maybe as soon as tomorrow evening, perhaps perhaps wednesday the greek banks will simply have zero euros left to give out. and at that point you have no banking system, you have no payment system and you have an economy that is operating on barter. and that is where it gets extremely nasty. pensioners who need their money from the atm cannot go and buy food. and so then i think you see quickly a move towards the government having to issue some kind of quasidrachma some kind of script and that's the beginning of the exit from the eurozone. >> rose: you are not as pessimistic? >> i'm not quit as pessimistic, i think sebastian's right is that one of the reasons why we haven't gotten a deal so far is because the germans have taken a very tough line position on continued greek austerity and reforms in labor force and in pensions,
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that they've been reluctant to completely come to the table on. but that's not the only issue. you know we also have the fact that the greek government had -- lacked complete legitimacy in greece. they had a very serious problem within their own party. they had a strong left wing that was helping to sabotage their own internal process am they had a minister of finance that was literally loathed by pretty much every-- in europe. they now have come through not with a 36% vote in the electoral process but with 61% from a referendum they've gotten rid of their minister of finance. they put more technocrats in. they've actually brought the opposition parties the establishment opposition parties together to say that they are going to together five parties bring a new proposal to the european states tomorrow. >> rose: will it be in your judgement a proposal more likely to be agreed to by the creditors? >> i think we've already heard from the french today that there is a greater willingness to accept a debt
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reduction as a debt forgiveness as part of this negotiation. are the greeks going to go farther now than they have in the past? i think they will in part because tsipras no longer has to worry that he's going to potentially lose his government and lose office at home. so part of the difficulty in negotiations between the greeks and germans that's still on the tablement but part it it has been tsipras's own difficulties at home and he has now decisively resolved that. had referendum process and the imf report last week says they need 60 billion euros in a transition those things have legitimizeed tsipras and allowed him to play a stronger hand with the europeans. >> rose: sebastian, i was listening to something on the radio driving in from the country, and there was a story that the finance minister is a game theorist by training. >> yes, interesting. he doesn't seem to have played this particular game very well. unless he was playing a game we didn't perceive. i mean maybe his real game was to become extremely famous globally. and the reissued version of
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his book on game theory which i'm told is eminently will sell very well. >> okay. but who forced him out? the party the tsipras who? >> well, i mean, i think look tsipras was in a position where he was on the one hand saying to the voters let's vote against the nasty creditors. and at the same time saying as soon as you vote no we'll get a deal. so he had to square that circlement and what he has done is throw his finance minister overboard who wasn't indeed toxic to the creditors. and so he's hoping that that is enough of a concession to be able to create some goodwill around the negotiating. i think it is certainly helpful to have switched finance ministers. the joke is that you know one of them is an exiter university trained marxist. the other one is an oxford university trained marxist. and i'm not sure it makes a huge difference when the prime minister himself has accused the creditors of quote, blackmail. so you know, we'll see. it is a gesture in the right
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direction to switch finance ministers. i'm doubtful that it's enough. >> rose: will they leave the eurozone? >> i'm thinking you know 70 80% chance they will. >> rose: yes, megan? >> i think it all depends on whether merkel has the polit call courage to put debt relief on the table despite the fact that her whole government is vehemently against it she has 80% approval ratings in germany but i think it's unlikely that she will based on previous experience. and i think the real trigger for a greek esity from the eurozone will indeed be the banks. i mean greece owes the ecb 3.5 million euros on july --. and if greek defaults, they will rerecall deem banks insol haven't and demand a resolution plan, in order to resolve the banks, i think the greek government is going to have to start printing a legal tender. i think that will be the avenue through which greece effectively has to leave the eurozone. >> it takes two. and there is no question even if tsipras is now in a
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stronger position with a much more unified party system in greece and population behind him the germans also have to come to the table. merkel is popular but she's not as popular today in germany as her finance minister who absolutely is ready for greek exit and has been pushing as hard as he can. >> rose: a greek exit. >> a greek exit. but having said that you know it's france today that is sitting down the french president mr. hollande is sitting down with angela merkel and they would like to see a way out of this process. they would like to see a compromise. the germans may be the leaders but they are not acting themselves. while merkel has been prepared to accept a exit, she doesn't want responsibility for it. she really wanted the greeks to show a level of intransigence that forces them out. that's much harder for her-- . >> rose: she wants them out. >> she doesn't want them out but she was increasingly prepared to accept a greek exit if it was greece's fault. that has been lost at this point. >> rose: let's assume they
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exit. exit the eurozone. what happens to their membership in the european union? >> they're still members of the european union. they still have very significant defendants in euro denominated, tens of billion, the standard & poor's put ou a report they would expect the economy would contract a further 20% over six months. it's beyond the 26% they've already contracted. they're not an export-driven economy. going to the drachma is absolutely devastating for greece at least in the near term and let's keep in mind tsipras has said very strongly and has been backed up on this internationally that the no vote was not about, it no vote was about austerity being placed in front of them. that was something a week ago no one was prepared to accept. today not only do the greek people accept it but international communities saying that is a reasonable --. >> rose: that there was too much austerity,.
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>> that it would sink greece and a better deal had to be created. that is why the imf report last thursday was so important and really did swing the greek referendum, which had been turning towards yes, suddenly on friday the imf report comes out, tsipras gives a big speech in greece and suddenly the nos are winning. >> rose: and the imf report said what. >> it said that they would not support a third bailout unless we had significant debt forgiveness and to the tune of some $60 billion euros were provided to the greeks to back it up. because otherwise the existing terms being offered were unsustainable for the greek economy. >> rose: so with debt forgiveness will the greeks in your judgement, sebastian, become more responsible to use one word, that is used by creditors? >> i think one problem is that debt forgiveness has become a sort of you know-- in this debate, the greeks are saying we need it, the germans are saying you're to the getting it. the truth is most of the debt we're talking about has been rescheduled such that
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there are no big payments on it i mean you know in the last week and in coming up through july, they are' asking payments which matter because the greeks are flat broke but in the kind of grand scheme of the debt a lot of the debt has got zero payments for the next few years. so you could completely you could write-off a lot of this debt and the problem would be that the greeks still need fresh new money to transfer to them. and so to keep the banks functioning, for example they need fresh sport from the central bank in frankfurt. and that is the problem. it's not just about debt relief. it's about fresh aid. >> rose: what interests me most of all is that whatever kind of financial engineering has to take place, what is necessary for the greek economy to get on-- on a sustaining growth pattern? >> well, greece desperately needs to open up its product and labor markets but unfortunately in the short term, that really undermines growth and is really painful it only starts to bite and
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support goat in the medium to long-term. right now is not a great take for the greek economy to implement those kinds of changes. and the biggest irony in all of this is that the no vote supposedly stood for no more austerity. but actually the greek government if it gets a deal will have to accept much more austerity than it would have had to had it agreed to the deal on the table in brussels a week and a half ago. that's because the economy will have contracted so much more now that there are capitol controls, particularly in the middle of the tourist season which is so important for the greek's economy. so the focus has been on austerity it should have been on structural reforms. but the timing is off unfortunately. >> megan is right. the problem is not the economic issue it's a political issue, that two weeks ago, three weeks ago accepting that deal was not going to get through parliament in greece. the massive risk is a consequence and tsipras would have found himself on his ear. now a deal is much more acceptable domestically. so the single biggest thing that happened over the last week, there is a lot of
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domestic political risk you have taken off the table. the question is you have taken any of it off the table for the germans or other interlock eters in europe, that is an open question. >> rose: you mean the political risk because this is an unpopular thing to do. >> because it is an incredibly unpopular thing to do. because-- chr-- they were elected with 35% of the vote, they were divided the left wing was prepared to hold the prime minister for ransom. >> rose: what is the left wing of siriza look like. >> it's similar to-- it's massively euro skeptic it wanted grexiti is last said they didn't want it from day one. you also may have seen that-- who was in charge of greece and was in charge of the relatively establishment new democracy party just stepped down. and now you have new leadership in the new democracy party which is prepared to actually bring a deal together with the greek government. this is very different looks
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domestic environment in greece today politically than it was before this referendum. that's the positive side. the negative side-- . >> rose: there are different political environments after this referendum because the people said we support what they are trying to do. >> and because tsipras's response to that has been let's consolidate the politics. >> charlie, what i worry about is we're going to be in a situation, if we do have, you know banks that can't be opened unless you issue some kind of script or drachma, you are going to be in hyperinflation potentially quite soon. what's going to happen is that the government doesn't want to impose more austerity so it doesn't want to cut spending. but revenues will collapse because of all the kind of chaos around the currency switch. people will be even less inclined to pay taxes in greece than they already are. so you will have a big fis cass deficit and to plug that since you can't borrow under those circumstances you're going to print money. and even the expectation that you might do that and going to print money is going to caused new script
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to devalue. then the government has to raise interest wrath rates a heck of a lot to prevent that devaluation of the yu quite aye greek currency and if did you raise interest rates you would be impose morning austerity on the domestic economy. so once you start to leave in an environment of zero credibility around policymaking, then i think you have no good options left. the stories where a kind of long weekend in os tonya causes you to come up with a new currency and you introduce it with some modicum of success those are stories where the government kind of believed to be a credible economic manager. i'm not sure we have that condition today in greece. >> rose: this is for all of you. what is the risk to the global economy? >> very small. i mean i think the truth is that greece is smaller than louisiana. and not only is it small it's not interconnected in the financial markets. so you know if you think
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about the lehman brothers story where one financial institution turned out to have massive repercussions that was because the rest of the financial system globally was so interconnected through derivatives trade through accounts in london. and greece is the opposite. the private creditors have left a long time ago. the debts are owed basically to the official sector. so i do not for see a lot of contagion, i think you have seen that in the market today. >> i think sebastian is right about all of this. but merkel is also completely aware of it. and the issue is no not that there is economic contagion. shoot is if you have a unified greece and a unify politte in greece that is then forced out effectively by the germans refusing to blink, refusing to budge, that the geo political response is going to be very different. >> rose: what will that be? >> well, i mean then you have a question of the greek government saying the european model doesn't work for us. we're turning to russia. we're turning to china. we're going to be a very different orientation. i mean why would you-- .
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>> rose: turning to china because they form a national-- they will find a natural friendship a natural bond from russia or china or of some economic model. >> i don't know -- dish wouldn't say app necessarily an economic model but i would certainly say the willingness of the chinese to put infrastructure in place and to establish as a consequence a number of shared standards with the greeks which ultimately undermine a what had been a unified political and economic space in europe the same thing true from a security perfective with greece that has been a nato member if again the greeks are completely left out in cold and in freefall it's hard for me to imagine that that relationship is going to maintain itself long term. >> rose: that relationship with nato. >> absolutely. >> rose: what does putin want. >> putin doesn't want to put 10 15 20 billion dollar in place to pay the greeks but if greece has no other choice and putin suddenly could have a base on the mediterranean, that looks like a win and pretty exciting from putin a perspective. >> rose: megan. >> yeah, i have to say i
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totally disagree that there won't be any contagion from a greek exit from the eurozone. i think that it would be a lehman type event but with a slower fuse, so if there is a precedent for countries exiting the eurozone, then the currency area is turned into a currency pay and the next time italy or spain stop growing especially italy, i think they will decide they would rather benefit from a nominal devaluation to return to growth rather than go through really politically poisonous structural reform so i think then you have a much bigger country like italy or spain choosing to leave the eurozone. and that would be hugely disruptive for the market. >> rose: or portugal too. >> i suspect sebastian agrees with that i certainly do. i was thinking the markets are concerned about contagion near term. long-term all of this is horrible for europe irrespective. you have a chronic environment where a europe that had been built for common political and economic values had been built to strengthen european institutions so you could have a euro as a global reserve currency all of that is being thrown away. what it means to be a part
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of europe is so much weaker than it used to be. the transatlantic relationship is weaker now than any point in the last 25 years. this may be good for the u.s. dollar in the near term long-term it's not good for america's top allies to be going through this type of traurma and obama may be talking about the fact that we would like them to get their house in order and form plate-- formulate a deal but he is on the sidelines as much as the brits are at this point. >> rose: because there is no room as an active player or because he didn't want to be. >> let's put it this way. if europe were as important to the united states as say israel-palestine, you think kerry would be spending a fourth, a third of the amount of time he spent on that issue as he was spending there. i don't see that level of effort. >> rose: so you think the u.s. has lost its interest in seeing what happens to europe? >> i wouldn't say lost its interest. i just think they are on the sidelines. looking at it and saying they will play it out it is a little like iraq. >> rose: is that a comment on us. >> of course it's a comment on us. but long-term we will pay the cost if europe really takes it on the chin. if either of the scenarios that meg or sebastian are
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talking about come to play in europe, ultimately the united states is being to hurt from that. >> rose: so sebastian, from the perch that you have is it time to say forget your dreams of a politically and economically integrated europe? >> you know, i would have a slightly different take from meg. i think that the problem f greece does leave and goes through a very very painful period which i believe it would the message to other countries thinking of leaving would not be that encouraging. they would not want to repeat the experiment of going through all that pain. if you think about the asian financial crisis in '97 the experience of that, of indonesia having a revolution as a consequence basically taught all the emerging markets that they had to accumulate massive central bank reserves so that they would not have to go to the imf once again. i think if greece went through a terrible period maybe with some hyperinflation certainly with a lot of-- that the
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message for voters in spain is do not vote for a populist party like podamos but the problem is if you want the long-term concern that i have, and what i am watching kind of after this crisis plays itself through the follow-on question is what lesson do the big countries in europe derive in terms of the kind of fiscal transfers that you really need to make a currency union operate. because in the future, there will be a country that is less competitive that therefore runs a trade deficit that deficit will be financed by capital inflows. and if you don't want those to blow up in a crisis you need to have what the united states has to make the dollar union function. namely an unemployment insurance system, for example that transfers money from a state that two states that really need it in a crisis. federal deposit insurance of banks. you need all these stabilization mechanisms which for the moment europe has not put in place
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properly. and that's what it needs to do in the future to make europe function and work. >> megan go ahead, i don't know whether you wanted to jump in on that or not. >> sure. i would say even before they get to these kinds of fiscal and political unions which will take decades in my view if it ever happens germany could do something as could the other stronger countries by adjusting as well so far it's just the weaker countries having to adjust and the stronger countries aren't adjusting at all. that just insurance there is no demand across the eurozone period. when i bring this up with my contacts in the german government and point out that actually germany is not growing much either so this approach isn't really working out for germany am they sort of look at me like i have 40 heads and say growth is an anglo sackson obsession. who needs growth if you have low unemployment and a balanced budget. so unfortunately i don't think that approach will change but it certainly would help. >> rose: so you have been in china talking about chinese markets, i assume. and what they might do about that. but how do they view this? >> well, it's interesting.
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>> rose: with debt crisis. >> europe doesn't really play very significantly in china right now. it's far afield. it is-- . >> rose: a lot of natural resources. >> they don't have a lot of experience. if you talk to the russians if you talk to the russians they look at europe every day and say aha! there is a dynamic where they could play and drive these guy as part. >> rose: because everything they do with geography. >> the chinese just aren't there. the chinese go to germany a lot. they are delighted that a lot of the europeans are sort of doing greater deals with them and coming on board with the new asia infrastructure bank. but with the chinese this week. it's much more about their own stock market and what they are trying to do domestically to balance both more open economy with the needs to appease and placate chinese short-term investors. >> but beyond that concern with domestic issues is that taking place in parallel with sort of looking at the development of these islands looking at a more a larger
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navy, looking at more clear signs that china wants to be, you know playing in every arena? >> what the chinese intend to do internationally is overwhelmingly focused on economics right now. >> it's really allotment because that's where their power is right. it's really aligned with the chinese internet, with chinese state-owned enterprises, selling more stuff, improving technology their cyberstrategy is aligned with their industrial policy. the cyberstrategy is to grab as much as they can that allows them to get higher value, transfer it from western multinationals to chinese multinationals hillary clinton just came out two days ago and said the chain ease are trying to steal everything that isn't bolted down. and i guess that includes her e-mail account. but you know this is the reality. the u.s. and china are at virtual war with each other. they're not virtually at war but they are at virtual war
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with each other. and the chinese response-- . >> rose: meaning it is move countermove in the cyberworld. >> without any question. and there are is really no holds bar on that. and our able to deter it thus far has been virtually zero that is a very serious issue, bigger from the national security per -- perspective than the u.s. greece will maintain the headlines for a good long time because the chinese like it that way. >> is there any possibility of sebastian, megan jump in any possibility that china and russia will find some additional relationship other than the deal they have. >> i think yes. i think we are already seeing it. the chinese are buying massive amounts of russian military material. the chinese are also investing billions and billions of dollars to build intrastructure into russia that will go beyond russia and through its middle east to tir key you name it. i think right now the chinese see the russians a a very useful strategic partnership that overtime
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will give them more influence against u.s. lead-- i very quickly this was a period where the brick acronym was everywhere all the time this idea of a brazil russia ingedia china alliance. and i think that kind of fizzled out a bit. instead what you have got is the asian infrastructure investment bank which is kind of a chinese global initiative, a very different animal not particularly aimed at roping in the other members of the brick club at all. and so i think i see that as a bit of a shift in china's positioning. which would imply sort of less interest in russia per se and more really trying to emerge on to the global stage, setting up a credible international solution an playing in that way instead. >> but and su manting the united states in what way? >> i think you know initially
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china would have liked to have more influence inside the international monetary fund and the world bank. there's a bit of a cap on that because of the old u.s. european duopoly in el chroing those institutions when china felt frustrated in getting the world bank to put am nor world bank money into infrastructure projects, it said fine, we'll set up our own institutions, by the way i think that is something we should welcome because the chinese are going to apparently set it up on a model that is kind of world bank governance but slightly improved. and i don't see it particularly challenging, i think it is complimentary to the institutions we have. to the extent of that open to western shareholders to come in i don't, i think we want china to join the multilateral multinational system. we don't want to freeze them out. and if setting up an infrastructure bank is their form of challenging the
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global order that is the kind of challenge i person leigh can live with very happily. >> wrong decision by the u.s. >> correct. >> okay. >> the chinese american ontions i have spoken to in the last week have made it very clear that there is no chance that what sebastian questioned is going to happen in the u.s. soon. while it may be right t is great if the americans welcome thisment they will stay on the sidelines on the other side seen as oppositional and moving toward more fragmentation. >> i think i said western not american. my point is that britain and other western countries have agreed to join it. >> instantly. >> and the chinese think japan is going to join believe it or not that's interestingness. >> i was going to say i think that's unlikely. ian mentioned everything in china is focused on the economy but related to that actually everything in china is focused on debt. and that relates china to the conversation we had earlier on europe. i think that we live in a world where central bankers are the only ones intervening any where. the they have been very active in the past couple of
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months and everybody thinks it's so-- i think they're just trying to figure out how to get funding for corporates and local governments without bailing them out. and you know, worst case scenario for china is they have cascading defaults and the state has to step in and bail them out. it's not the end of the world but we know the u.s. how painful that can be. i think that is what china's immediate term focus is. >> let me ask you this: looking at the greek debt crisis, whose reputation was enhanced and whose reputation suffered. lets's talk about la guard a lexzist tsipras let's talk about angela merkel. >> and maybe others you want to add to it. whose reputation among all those was enhanced. >> i would start with angela merkel here. i think she has been viewed as a very successful politician re-elected,. lar in her own country. an i think if greece does crash out of the eurozone
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some of that glow is going it wear off. because it was her decision not to make the argument to the german electorate earlier on that you had to be more generous to greece. because if you are not more generous you would push them into the arms of populists and get the kind of austerity fat agency that we now see. i see the mess in greece as a blemish on angela merkel's long teferm reputation. >> okay, quickly because i have a time limit here. what about christine la guard. >> i think she is doing fine. i mean earlier-- early on the imf was way too complacent in saying that various reform programs in greece would work. they haven't worked. but that was before her time. and i think she's now doing the right thing. >> rose: and -- >> so far soed goo. he's been a hero since he came in holding the eurozone together, pushing down peripheral bond spread.
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he's got a very tough decision now because he doesn't want to be the precipitating factor forcing the greek banks to close completely. i mean and by cutting them off. but so he didn't want to have his fingerprints on the final-- but i think he can manage that and try to force the political leadership in europe to take the responsibility which is really theirs in the end so i think he comes out pretty well. >> do you disagree with any of that megan and secondly tell me about how you think this has changed the fortunes of alexis tsipras. >> yeah, i actually would agree with all of that. for tsipras i think he's an absolute hero here. the one thing that the referendum achieved was that it totally decimated all of the opposition. so if there is one man to deal with in greece it's obviously alexis tsipras but externally of course his reputation is damaged for really gambling with the country's future. >> rose: thank you both thank you sebastian, thank you, megan.
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last question. what is the next question? >> the next question in europe or next question globally. >> first your and then globally. >> the next question in europe is merkel going to come to the table. merkel is-- merkel is absolutely the one who is vulnerable here. nobody wants this to fall apart on their watch. tsipras is the hero near not just for the greeks but others as well. he's getting alot respect from a lot of people that thought he couldn't play cards here. he has got a herbl hand. you still probably lose when you play a horrible hand but right now he's doing pretty well. >> merkel is the question. we have to see what she is going to do the next 48 hours t will be very interesting to watch. globally you and i talk about china a lot more than the american press does. and china is what we need to watch. we can talk about the middle east. we can talk about greecement we can talk about iran and iraq and isis but the fact is while we're discussing all those things the chinese are effectively working
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towards becomesing the largest economy in the world with strong leadership that is consolidated at the top and very proud nation that feels quite confident in what they are accomplishing and bringing to the world. >> i'm obsessed by china and russia and at the same tame whether there will be a coordinated concerted effort against isis. >> i don't know that there is going to be a coordinated effort from the russians and chinese because neither of them want to put significant sort of capital into the middle east at this point. >> blue you don't think the russians have any desire to be part of any or the iranians part ofan anti-isis. >> i think a coalition that is anti-isis automatically involves things like the saudies in the middle east. i don't think you can get the iranians and saudies to play together. i don't think you can get the chinese to want to have a significant hand in something that they see as being fraught with risk. and that isn't going to give a lot of upside to them. so no, i think they're going to stay reasonably on the sidelines. i do think it's interesting,
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the last couple of meeting and phone calls with kerry and obama and putin have been talking more broadly than just about ukraine. where has ukraine been in all of this. it's because they recognize they have overplayed their hand and ultimately you can have big fights with big countries but you also need them in some ways. we'll have a lot more frenemys that is the big thing you need to pay attention to. >> sebastian and megan i know that leaves you wanting to jump in, thank you all very. thank you. >> the u.s. had a historic victory against japan in the women's world cup final on suchblted the final score 5- -- the high scoring final in world cup history. the match began with a bolt from u.s. midfielder carli lloyd. she scored three goals in the first 16 minutes of play. >> lloyd to morgan streaking off the post and in! hat trick for lloyd! >> rose: the game was a rematch of the final in 2011 which japan won a penalty
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shoot-out. this is the first world cup win for the u.s. women's team in 16 years. u.s. is now the first nation to win its third title. joining me now from seattle, washington briana scurry an olympic gold medalist and goalkeeper for the american team that won the world cup in 1999. here in new york tommy smith a soccer analyst and anchor for espn and in progress from vancouver canada jere longman. he is a sports reporter for "the new york times". he's also the author of a book about the 1999 world cup championship team t is called the girls of summer. tell me about this. is this beyond what we expected in terms of it was over early. >> yeah, you could never, you could never write a script like this. i mean if you tune in late 16 minutes this game was over. and it was the ideal way to win a tournament. the united states first 20 minutes against australia unbelievable problems, hope solo came up for a few great saves.
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after that the united states just started to improve and when their coach jill ellis put lloyd up front an told her to become an attacker, there was no problems for the united states. before that she had her in a holding row which basically means she was a defender. but when she set her loose and said go skol goals she scored goals and really rounded it out last night. unbelievable hat trick. >> rose: how good is this team? >> this team is very good very good. they're very clinical now. they got it all together. i mean you saw that goal she dials it up long distance that is correct came from midfield am you could almost put an airmail stamp on it and put it into the back. >> perfectly. i mean she it was unbelievable that she had the recognition in a world cup final that the goalkeeper was off the line and that she could actually beat her. you felt bad for the goalkeeper but obviously -- >> what you can say about the japanese team. >> this japanese team showed so much heart last night. even though they were down charlie, they still managed
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to get back into the game. at one point the cut tore score two goals and just kept coming and coming and coming. this is a team that has been in a couple of big finals now. the last world up with they beat the united states. so this was aye revenge of sort for the united states. but this japanese team, they are a young they're very very technically good. and i think you're going to hear from them in the future. >> briana wa, do we have to say about the u.s. coach? >> she did a fantastic job. initially in the round-robin games i was concerned because the u.s. states attack wasn't looking that good but the defense was looking stellar. like tommy said hope had a fantastic first game against australia, and after that the defense got on lockdown mode and really didn't allow any balls anywhere near here so jill ellis did finally actually make some changes but i really feel she had to because she had the two players had a yellow card accumulation in lauryn-- i
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forget her last name sorry and also megan rapinoe weren't allowed to play against china so jill ellis had to make a change and she did. after that game, the u.s. played incredibly well against china. jill ellis had the foresight to even continue the line-up that was so spectacular. and that is what got them to the final, really. i feel jill made changes stuck with them let the players be themselves tommy had said carli lloyd had a fantastic tournament and that is when she allowed her to be herself that the usa really started to pick up on the offensive end and started scoring goals. >> rose: now jailed by jere longman from the "new york times". you have written a book about women's soccer. how does this team measure up to all the women teams that you have seen? >> it's difficult to compare eras, charlie but this team is probably the best defensive team the united states has ever had. and also you know since the
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u.s. team won the women's world cup in 1999 the game has he solved tremendously. it's a much more skilled game a faster game. i would say that the competition is probably at a higher level than it was for previous american victories. >> rose: and carli lloyd what would you say about about her. >> carli is a player who earlier in her career struggled with fitness but began working with a personal coach. she trains all the time. and she has become one of the best big game players in the history of women's soccer. she scored the winning goal in the 2008 and 2012 olympics. then yesterday scored three goals, she practices a lot of visualization techniques. an she said she dreamed of scoring four goals in the final. she almost did actually. so she a player who works on confidence as long as she feels assured she's one of the best players in the world. >> rose: a perfect segue to
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this quote says by the american coach who said carli lloyd was a challenge to coach when she-- when she felt that we had faith in her, she could be one of the best players. but if she began to question that faith she could be one of the worst. i mean that clearly made her a better player. >> yes and in this tournament she you know she was in a defensive role in midfield and was longing to sort of push forward and attack. and she essentially said at one point in the turnment to reporters, we have to start taking chances. she has a very good relationship with the coach so she spoke to each other and jill said don't worry we'll get you going. and by necessity and by her tactical nimbleness, i think jill figured out that carli was needed in a more forward attacking role. and it proved to be the difference in the tournament.
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>> rose: what impressed you beyond carli about the team? >> well, i think what impressed me was that this could have become a very controversial team we were talking, you know everybody was having a go at jill she wasn't doing the right thing, the u.s. team were not finishing their opportunities. you know amy wambach became a good deal she couldn't score on this turf they were playing on there was a lot of controversy swirling around the team but jill held her head and held everybody together. and event lyully everybody got on to the one page it looked like this was going to blow up at one time charlie. admittedly now and even the most ardent u.s. fan will tell you they road their luck against germannee. they got a couple of calls against germany but that is soccer. you make your own luck and if you can make your own luck and push on from there well good for you. but i think the fact that this team stayed together didn't exemployed in all the
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controversy. there were people saying she doesn't have -- >> without gets credit for that. >> i tell you one thing she's to the getting credit for it yet but when people lack back at it, i think the coach will definitely get credit for it that she could handle all of those egos and all of the things going on. we'll probably hear a lot of other things now that the tournament was over this was happening, that was happening. but one player that i thought put on a great show is alex more van coming back from a long-term injury and i thought she played really well. she showed herself up very well. >> what is the difference from men's socker? is it athleticism i wouldn't think so is it strength, perhaps. what else. >> well, strength and speeds and decades of being allowed to play. the men's world cup started in 19 -- the women from not allowed to play a world cup in 1991. so the men have decades advance opportunity to play. the women i think have
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really appealed to many spectators with the team aspect of the game. it may be because it unfolds slightly lower, maybe it's better to watch or easier to watch for many people. but it's you know there is no difference in determination and longing for victory and team work. i means that's indissting wishable. >> what will this victory do for women's soccer? >> i think-- i think it's going to be amazing. so many people mr. able to watch this vehicle ree that the u.s. had yesterday. not only do you have the advent of social media but you also have a real feeling of knowing these players. and i think people really appreciated that. they felt like they knew alex morgan lauryn holliday, they knew abbey wambach because they figured out that they got to know them and seemed like friends.
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they felt like friends and everybody got involved. i think with that addition of social media not game now you are going to see a real exponential growth well. had exponential growth in 1999 after our great victory and i think today you'll see that as well. going in. and it won't be until a few years from now and maybe five years from now that you really see the difference and change in the growth of the game. but i definitely think it's coming. i really feel it was a very meaningful, very powerful victory. that the u.s.a. was able to vand really reestablish themselves as the best team in the world especially at this time. >> talk about hope solo. and her performance. >> hope had a fan tags particular first game against australia. australia came out this they had a very young team. fantastic runs am they were actually very much in control of that game in the first half. the usa seemed like they were a little flat floundering and hope solo really stepped up. that is what the goalkeeper has to do especially in these major tournaments.
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there will be times when the team starts a little bit flat. i feel hope solo really stepped up did her part. and stock completely honest with you charlie, she had a fantastic first half and that was able to give the u.s.a. some time to really get their bearings about them. the second half they came up made different adjustments at half time, completely different team in second half. for the rest of the tournament you don't see hope doing a whole lot after that. she connected well with her defense, a lot of good communication with them. and the spacing of the back line was fantastic. as a unit the five of them had a fantastic world cup and one of the best defences i've ever seen to be completely honest with you yesterday carried it on in. they got a 4 goal spot in the first 15 minutes with the wonders of carli lloyd and just basically held on to it. and really it should be could mended and appreciated especially the two center backs of johnson and saarbrat. >> what did you think of the
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japanese coach and the calls she made. >> the japanese coach made interesting substitutions i felt in the games before that i had seen i was a little bit puzzled by some of the substitutions they were macking. some players that were playing really with each other he would make substitutions at odd times i felt. i feel the japan team was a little bit off coming into this final as they barely beat england in an extra time own goal. urtly by england, i felt england was really dominating that game. japan backed into the final whereas the usa they came storming in to it. as soon as they got that big win against germany i really think they felt it was destiny for them to win. and they sure came out quickly and put it a which in the first 15 minutes. >> jerry, do you sense the same thing, there was some sense of destiny after beating germany? >> yeah there really seemed to be there was ar
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confidence i think that began building after the vehicle over china and the quarterfinals when carli lloyd started going forward and scoring and providing some reliable attack. i really think the confidence built and the players were very assured before the final. i mean not arrogantly sho but they were assured that they would win. i'm not sure anyone realized they would score three goals or four goals in 16 minutes. but they were pretty confident. >> so if you are writing a book about this world up with-- world cup whs's the narrative. >> the women's game is growing to the point. tommy made a good point earlier, that people are now talking about tactics they're criticizing the coaches line-ups and her formations so that shows that people are taking the game seriously there say more sophisticated viewing of the game. and also i think the other narrative is that the rest of the world is catching up to the united states even
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though the united states won you saw in this tournament columbia beat france third ranked team in the world came a ron reached the second round england reached the semi finals. so while women is still unfortunately not treated equally women's football is gaining more resources around the world and the game continues to grow. and so i think that's probably the most hopeful thing, that people are in greater numbers taking women soccer seriously. >> you would agree the idea of this team and this win will ago certainty the a people of sock never america. >> oh, yeah and it's going to interest a lot of sponsors because you can certainly get more bang for the buck with the women's team because it will be a lot cheaperment for instance the u.s. only got 2 million from fifa for winning the world cup where the german men's team got am million. there are a lot of things going on. in england there were 12 million people watched the game the other night which is almost incredible because
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the game was played live at 12:00 midnight from 12 to 2. so they had a huge. >> 12 million. >> 12 million. which is incredible because you know, in england there was absolutely no interest practically in the women's game. but the women's game has grown in leaps and bounds and this victory here, the only thing that could have been better, charlie, was that if the u.s. had beaten england on july 4th that would have been the best the kicker of the whole. >> one day or two days. >> two days. >> but the idea in america men's sock certificate not football is not as appreciated as it is around the world, around the world is women's soccer appreciated less than it is appreciated here? >> oh, much more so. it's much less. i mean there's very few countries except germany probably australia and france that have any interest have pretty good leagues. england has a good league but everybody is starting to
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catch on. it's changing. we live in a different world thank god and everything is changing now. it has been pointed out there were teams here. the ivory coast was here columbia was here teams never heard of before. women's sock certificate starting to get a foothold because men's soccer just keeps rolling and rolling and rolling. it's a juggernaut. the women's soccer is starting to catch up. >> do you agree with that? >> i'm very confident that women's soccer will continue to grow just like tommy said just the mere fact that there is 24 teams in this tournament is really good sign for me. and i keep going back to 1999 where we had a lot fewer teams. i feel ever since the 99 world cup win the effect that that had basically made other federations pour more money and more resources into their women's teams thinking hey maybe we can create something that is similar to what the usa created or at the least give somebody else an opportunity and maybe we have more here than we realize with our
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women's programs. so i think now that this team has won such an amazing world cup and the fan base has been fantastic and attendance has been good and high numbers for fox with their ratings, i think you really have an opportunity here to grow the game of women's soccer organically and it's going to be a bigger opportunity for fifa if they choose to pour more money into it as well. >> you are writing i a book about this team. >> i'm not but i echo what brian and tommy have-- bri and tommy have said to a point. in latin cultures women are often not encouraged to play soccer. they are considered unfeminine and in africa women are also in many places not encouraged, or actively discouraged from playing soccer. so there needs to be cultural changes and there needs to be from fifa much more encouragement. the president of fifa seth
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blatter his great idea for improving women's soccer was to have them wear tighter shorts. he forced them to play this tournament on artificial turf where men have always been able to play on grass. fifa needs to be far more serious, i think about encouraging of women's soccer. as in all other sports women just need the opportunity and if given the opportunity, they show what they can do. >> one other point make sure i understand this it is the reason women have done well in america is because at some point whatever decade it was we started providing and offering an opportunity for young girls to play soccer. is that what happened? >> the opportunity became available and i think that's what needs to happen all over the world. like jere said there are many parts of this world where the girl don't v the women don't have an opportunity to even explore whether they want to play soccer or not. i feel here in the united states we always will that. with the advent of title nine, that was a huge point that went through that now
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gave us the opportunity, i am a product of title nine that even that i was given an opportunity to be able to participate in soccer or basketball or whatever it was. i chose soccer and i think that's what helps grow any sport around the country and especially around the world opportunity has to be available. >> why did you choose soccer? >> actually i chose quite a few sports. i played basketball i played tennis. i also played softball when i was in high school. so i really enjoyed a lot of different sports. had a lot more opportunity like we just said to play soccer at a higher level in college, so that is what i went with. and finally was told that i was good fluff to play on the national team by my college team coach at the time and sure enough that is where i ended up being. and 15 years later made a career out of it. so it was an absolutely outstanding opportunity, for me. that may not have been there a few years before that. you know title 9 hadn't come through, if the opportunity hadn't been available, i wouldn't be talking to you right now.
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so i think now is the time for other countries to get involved and allow the young girls in those countries to play. >> thank you, tommy. >> thank you charl-year. >> thank you bothment for more about this program and earlier episodes visit us on-line at pbs.org and charlie rose.com captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org
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>> on tomorrow's pbs newshour, the last minute push to meet a self-imposed deadline to secure an iran if you clear deal.
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this is "nightly business report" with tyler mathisen an. >> in to the unknown. the european central bank tightens the screws on the gr. one day after the greeks voted no to th. emergency measures. not just in greece but in china, as well where the government of the world's second largest economy, is taking dramatic steps to stabilize its stock market. slip and slide. what caused the sharp tumble in oil prices today. an? all that and more tonight on "nightly busines report" for . good evening, everyone and welcome. th for joining us. and rising. and the pressur on a greek banking system alre greek banks will stay
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